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Miracles in the Qur'an

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#1 Dan Gibson

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:02 PM

I am starting a new topic area, and hope the conversation can move to here.

On 22 February 2013 - 02:10 PM abdelouahed asked:

Canbooks, i think that you are Dan gibson?

Have you heard about numerical miracles in the quran?

Yes, I have also used the name CanBooks as I was traveling, and did not have my password with me, so I created a new user. I will be traveling again later this month, so I will be away for several weeks.

As for numerical miracles in the Qur'an, I have only heard people talk of them, and I have not read much, nor studied this area. I think I heard something about the number 19. Can you explain how this number is miraculous?

#2 abdelouahed



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Posted 28 February 2013 - 10:49 AM

Thank you for this topic.

About the number 19 here are some values:

The first surat that was revealed by god is " Al'alak" the number of its verses is 19

The total number of surats is 114 and it is devided by 19: 114/19=6.

The number of letters of " بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم " is 19.

For more informations please visit this page:


I will speak about the numerical relations that i discovered and i gathered them in a book " Annissab alkalakiah oua al joghrafiah fi alquraan alkarim" that means: " Astronomical and geographical ratios in the quran "

أنا أعتبر أنه باب علم لم يدخل منه أحد قبلي، فهو أساسا يعتمد على نطق القرآن و أحكام التجويد والترتيل.

لذا كي يفهم شخص هذا يجب أن يكون قادرا على قراءة القرآن ملما بأحكام التجويد.

أولا: عدد أيات سورة البقرة ٢٨٥ بالعد المدني الأخير، الآية ١٤٣ قبلها ١٤٢ آية وبعدها ١٤٢ آية فهي وسط عدد الآيات و هي تحتوي كلمة "وسطا" في قول الله تعالى " وكذلك جعلناكم أمة وسطا"
ومعنى كلمة وسطا كما قال أهل التفسير: عدولا.

ثانيا: النسب في الآية 142:

"سيقول السفهاء من الناس ما ولاهم عن قبلتهم التي كانوا عليها قل لله المشرق والمغرب يهدي من يشاء إلى صراط مستقيم"

هل من دلالة على أن أولى القبلتين هي القدس؟

عدد حروف الآية المنطوقة في حالة قراءة تامة للآية دون توقف وبتطبيق أحكام الإدغام والإخفاء والإظهار والمدود الطبيعية 85 حرفا لأننا نقف عند
مستقيم فلا ننطق التنوين الأخير.

عدد الحروف من بداية الآية إلى قبلتهم 33 حرفا وبأخذ وسط كلمة قبلتهم -استنادا لإشارة في الآية 143 - نجد 30 حرفا، فنسبة هذا العدد إلى 85 حرفا:

30 / 85 = 0.3529

نضرب هذه النسبة في 90 عدد درجات النصف الشمالي للكرة الأرضية – من خط الاستواء إلى القطب – حيث عاش رسول الله وتلقى الوحي من ربه عز وجل

90 * 0.3529 = 31.7647°

وهو مساو لخط عرض القدس الشريف وبالقرب من قبة الصخرة أولى القبلتين وهي المقصودة في هذه الآية في عبارة " القبلة التي كنت عليها" .

سأضيف الترجمة للإنجليزية لاحقا.

#3 Dan Gibson

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:36 PM

Your last post In Arabic was quite long for my level of Arabic, especially when one considers the Saudi newspaper article. I draw from them that the re-occurrence of number 19 is special to Muslims, because it seems to indicate a miracle from God and thus indicates that the Qur’an must be true.

This is based on the opening verses of the Qur’an, which are at the beginning of each Sura throughout the Qur’an. بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم This sentence has 19 letters in Arabic. Personally I think that this proves nothing. There are Christians who have done this with the Bible, and Jewish groups who have done it with the Torah. In the end no one is convinced.

But let’s look at the main example.

The claim is that each of the letters of this verse appear in the Qur’an a multiple of 19 times. For instance the Arabic word بسم appears 19 times in the Qur’an. The word الله appears 2698 times which is 19 time 142, الرحمن appears 57 times which is 19 times 3, الرحيم appears 114 times which is 19 times 6.

When I count the word ism, it appears many more times in my Qur’an. The first sentence of each Sura says: بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم , so that is 114 times. But maybe you don’t count those.

When I did a rough search for the word ism, I found it appeared at least 33 times in the Qur’an. How do you get 19? Perhaps you only choose the word ism when it is a noun in the majruur? In that case you should state that you are picking and choosing specific instances of the word “ism”.

Here is the list of references where I found the word ism in its various forms: 1:1 bism, 11:41 bism, 13:33 sumuhum, 19:7 Ismahi, samian, 2:114 ismahu, 22:28 ism allah, 22:34 ism allah, 22:36 ism allah, 22:40 Ism allah, 22:36 ismahu, 22:40 ismahu, 24:36 ismahu, 27:30 bism allah, 3:45 ismahu, 49:11 al ism, 5:4 ism allah, 53:27 liyesamun, tusamihi, 55:78 isma rubak, 56:74 bism rubak, 56:96 bism rabak, 6:118 ismu allah, 6:119 ism allah, 6:121 ismu allah, 6:138 ism allah, 61:6 ismahu, 69:52 bism rabak, 73:8 ism rabak, 76:25 ism rabak, 87:1 ism rabak, 87:17 ism rabihi, 96:1 biism rabak

Even if it were true that ism was found 19 times, what does this prove? The term بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم was used much earlier than Islam, and is borrowed from the church. I checked with the Syrian scholars who said that according to Roggema, P. 259 note 36, many copies of the Old Testament from Mount Sinai begin with the بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم . The term is even used in the liturgy of the Syriac church. (Prof. Pietre Yousif , at the Oriental Institute in Rome,Patrologia Syriaca, 2010)

The term, however, is older than the Christian writings, it is found in the Old Testament, in Hebrew. The oldest of these being in the writings of Moses.

The original Semitic name for God was El, or Eloha, which became Allah in Arabic. Below is a list of a few of the occurrences in the Bible.

Exodus 34:6 El The Lord God is merciful and gracious

2 Chronicles 30:9 Elohim God is gracious and merciful

Nehemiah 9:17 Elowah God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful

Nehemiah 9:31 El A gracious and merciful God

Psalm 86:15 El A gracious and merciful God

Joel 2:13 Elohim God is gracious and merciful

Jonah 4:2 El A gracious God, and merciful

When I read other articles on the number 19, they often refer to Sura 74:30. The way I read that verse is that the number 19 refers to something feminine: alayha. This would have to be the burning that is mentioned in the previous verses. There is nothing in this Sura to indicate that it is talking of the Qur’an. So it seems to me that the number 19 refers to burning and hell.

In the end, I cannot accept that the occurrences of certain mathematical possibilities in any text is not proof of it being divine.

#4 abdelouahed



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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

About the page of saudi fatwa commitee i have put the link to be well read, because i can't translate all the page, and my level in english is not high so i fear to put some things that are not adequate to the fatwa.

but consider the conclusion: " مما تقدم من المناقشات يتبين أن ما ذكره الدكتور رشاد خليفة في محاضرته وسماه معجزة محمد الخالدة ، وما نشرته له جريدة " اليوم السعودية " وسماه معجزة قرآنية مذهلة لا يصلح أن يكون معجزة تثبت بها الرسالة والصدق في دعوى النبوة لما فيه من الخطأ والتناقض ، ولأنه على فرض سلامته من ذلك فهو في متناول القوى البشرية ، لإمكان اكتسابه عن طريق الأسباب العادية ، فيستطيع البشر أن يأتوا بمثله فرادى وجماعات ، أما المعجزات فسمتها التي تتميز بها عن المخترعات عجز البشر -على أي حال كانوا- عن أن يأتوا بمثلها ، لكونها من وراء الأسباب العادية .
وعلى هذا لا يصح أن يقال : إن كتابة القرآن حسب قواعد الإملاء ينافي معجزة القرآن الرياضية الحسابية ، بل الذين يمنعون ذلك يبنون رأيهم على أسباب أخرى ذكرناها في بحث خاص بذلك ".

The muftis do not agree with the doctor Rashad Khalifa that this relations are considered miraculous.

The glorying of this number returned to the Bahaieen -البهائيين- ho follow a man that he said he is a messenger from god in 1863, for this i don't consider that this group are muslims and number 19 has no significance to prove that islam is from god, also the relations that i discovered i consider them as complements of faith "Iman" as god says in quran 74-31: " ليزداد الذين آمنوا إيمانا" and those who believe increase in belief.

For this please discuss what i discovered not what the others say.

What i discovered is in the aim of your work and efforts for 20 years ago.

I consider this results as signals not translations of the quran - إشارات وليست تفسيرات-

The translation of the arabic part in my first replay :

"I consider this as a door of science that never had been opened before me; it's founded on the pronounciation of quran and tajweed rules.

If some one wants to understand well he must know the tajweed roles and can read quran in arabic well.

First: the number of verses in the surat 2 albakarah is 285 verse,

[2.143] And so We have made you a median nation, in order that you will be a witness above the people, and that the Messenger be a witness above you. We did not change the direction that you were facing except that We might know who followed the Messenger from him who turned on both his heels. Though it was a hardship except for those whom Allah has guided. But Allah would never waste your faith. Indeed, Allah is Gentle with people, the Most Merciful.

Translation website: http://www.e-quran.c...h4/r-sura2.html

The verse 143 is the middle of the verses , before her 142 and after her 142; this verse contains the word "وسطا" that means median, so the islamic nation is median of all the nations and this is mentioned in the median verse 143.

Median in arabic source of tafseer means : عدولا ; their witnesses are accepted.

Second: the ratio in the 142 verse

[2.142] The fools among the people will say: 'What has made them turn away from the direction they were facing? ' Say: 'The east and the west belong to Allah. He guides whom He will to the Straight Path. '

Is there a signal that Jerusalem was the first qiblah?

The number of letters of the verse if we read it completely until its end is 85 letter because we don't spell the last tanween , we stop on سكون of "mim" of mostaqeem .

The number of letters from the start to the middle - basing on the signal of the 143 verse - of the word "qiblatihim" قبلتهم is 30 letter

30/ 85= 0.3529

Multiply by 90 the degrees number of the northern hemisphere - where quran was descended on Mohammed PBUH-

0.3529*90= 31.7647°
= 31° 45' 52.9" N and this is equal to the latitude on Jerusalem near to rock dome. And this is a clear signal to the first qiblah where Mohammed PBUH directed.

I will speak about the second ratio about second qiblah" mecca" after, insha allah.

#5 abdelouahed



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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:02 PM

Hello again;

ثالثا: النسب في الآية 144 من سورة البقرة

"قد نرى تقلب وجهك في السماء فلنولينك قبلة ترضاها فول وجهك شطر المسجد الحرام وحيث ما كنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره وإن الذين أوتوا الكتاب ليعلمون أنه الحق من ربك وما الله بغافل عما يعملون"

عدد الحروف الكلي 150 حرفا بحساب مد الصلة الصغرى لآخر كلمة شطره.
عدد الحروف من: قد نرى ...قبلة 36 حرفا
النسبة = 36/ 50 = 0.24
بالضرب في 90 درجات النصف الشمالي نجد 21.6 وهذه القيمة قريبة جدا من عرض مكة شرفها الله.
أي أن مضمون الآية: القبلة التي رضيها محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم هي القبلة التي في منطقة عرض 21° وليس في البتراء كما ادعوا.

رابعا: النسب في الآية 217

" ويسألونك عن الشهر الحرام قتال فيه قل قتال فيه كبير وصد عن سبيل الله وكفر به والمسجد الحرام وإخراج أهله منه أكبر عند الله والفتنة أكبر من القتل ولا يزالون يقاتلونكم حتى يردوكم عن دينكم إن استطاعوا ومن يرتدد منكم عن دينه فيمت وهو كافر فأولئك حبطت أعمالهم في الدنيا والآخرة وأولئك أصحاب النار هم فيها خالدون"
ذكر فيها المسجد الحرام
بقسمة 217 على 285 نجد 0.7614
نضرب النسبة في 90 درجات نصف الكرة الشمالي نجد: 68.5263 وهي تمثل البعد الجيوديزي للحرم المكي عن القطب الشمالي وهي لعـرض 21° 28' 25" شمالي.
ومن التناسق العجيب والترتيب المهيب في آيات القرآن أن النسب الأولى في حساب حروف الآيات أعلاه يدلنا مباشرة على مقادير عرض مكة أو القدس وهي أقرب إلى مبدأ العد وهو مستوي الاستواء وكأنه بداية الآيات، وهذه النسبة في الآية 217 تكون أقرب إلى نهاية السورة وقد أعطتنا بعد مكة عن حد نهاية العد وهو القطب الشمالي وكأنه نهاية السورة.
فالتناسب ظاهر بين مواقع الكلمات وقربها من بداية الآيات والنسب المحسوبة منها ودلالة النسب على المواقع المقدسة وقربها من مبدأ العد لدوائر العرض ، وكذا بين النسبة المحسوبة من الآية 217 وقربها من نهاية السورة ودلالة النسبة على بعد مكة عند نهاية خطوط العرض وهي نقطة القطب الشمالي.
الصورة التالية تبين موقع العلم وهو على خط طول الكعبة على جبل الوقير وهو إلى الجنوب من حد الحرم الشمالي على جبل الوقير.

I will add the english translation later inchaa allah.

#6 Dan Gibson

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:28 PM

I find refuting these claims very taxing. For instance, earlier it was stated that the number 19 was special in the Qur’an... and that بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم has 19 letters in Arabic, and that each of the words appear 19 times or a multiple of 19 times in the Qur’an. This is easy to claim, but it takes hours of research to demonstrate that it is totally false because one must go through and count the number of times the word appears. Ism appears. 33 times in the Qur’an, which is not a multiple of 19. When this is pointed out, my Muslim friends then pass over it to make other outrageous claims. It is not the role of scholars to go around debunking fantastic claims made by people who do not do their research, but simply pass on something they heard from someone else. Anyone who claims that the number 19 is miracle based on the earlier arguments is a liar or a fool. I assume they are a fool because they just pass on others say. In regards to miracles, even the Mufties do no agree what is miraculous.

Taking the number of letters in a statement and comparing it to the number of degrees multiplied by 90 and then claiming that 0.3529 is somehow equal to 31° 45' 52.9" N which is the latitude of Jerusalem near the dome of the Rock is simply foolishness. These two figures are not equal to each other in any way. Even if they were, this does not prove anything. It is simply noticing the that two things are similar. The same logic you are using was used by Florin Diacu in his book The Lost Millennium. He noticed that when comparing the Catholic Popes from AD 911 - 1376 that the length of reigns is very similar to the Kings of Judah (931-586 BC). Thus he assumed that they were describing the same list of rulers, and he removes 1000 years from human history. (Diacu, Florin, The Lost Millennium, History's Timetables Under Siege, Knoff Canada, Random House, 2005) You seem to be using the same twisted logic, and coming up with similar illogical conclusions. But this is just my opinion.