24 replies to this topic

[abdelouahed]

مرحبا:

هل هناك من يتكلم اللغة العربية في هذا المنتدى؟
وخاصة مؤلف كتاب جغرافية القرآن، دان جيبسون.
لدي الكثير لأناقشه.

[Dan Gibson]

اهلا وسهلا

منذ سنتين وانا فى انتظار اي شخص يرد علىّ

انا ليس عندي كي بورد باللغة العربية حيث اني ضعيف في اللغة العربهة.

لذلك ارجو الكتابة الي باللغة الانجليزية حتى استطيع الرد عليك باللغة الانجليزية الاكثر سهوالة لي

ملاحظة من المهم اي شخص يسال اي سوءال عن الكتاب ارجو اتاكد من انه قد قام بقراءة الكتاب حيث ان معظم اجابات هذة الاسخله موجودة في هذا الكتا

شكراً

[abdelouahed]

Hello
I've also a moderate level in english but we can do a thing .
I've read the abstract of your book written by Jeremy in english and arabic versions;
But there is a lot of contradictions between the reality and your points of view.
Especially between quran and your arguments.
First question do you believe that quran in our days is the same that mohammed narrated to his companions ?

[Dan Gibson]

Thank you for using English. Your question is not easy to answer. Several years ago I would have answered yes, but now I am not sure. After examining early Qur’ans it seems to me that the original Qur’an was shorter. However, I have not had access to all of the early Qur’ans that have been found, and I have not had the time to examine even the photos I have. So I am not sure. I do believe that there is ample evidence that Muhammad existed, and that he spoke revelations to his followers. Those followers memorized what he said. My questions come during the various gatherings of the Qur’an in the first two hundred years of Islam.

[abdelouahed]

Second question:
you said that your level in arabic is low - interpretation of ضعيف -, so , from which sources you extracted all the informations concerning the quran and islam, i mean original arabic sources or other languages sources?

[Dan Gibson]

I have been studying the history of the Arabian Peninsula for over 30 years how, and have lived in several Middle Eastern countries during that time. In my home I have a collection of over 20,000 books. Some of these are electronic, and some are printed volumes. It would be impossible to list them all here.

I think perhaps my mode of research is more important.

When dealing with Arabic sources, I tried to have both the Arabic book as well as many English translations as possible. For instance I have more than a dozen English translations of the Qur’an, plus I use electronic search programs such as Alim 6. (I provide a number of books on a DVD for those who are interested: (see: http://searchformecca/downloads.html) I have copes of the Hadiths in Arabic as well as in English. I have copies of Al Tabari in Arabic as well as in English, as I do of Sirat Rasul Allah.. This allows me to check the original when the exact meaning of an Arabic word is in question. As for dictionaries, I prefer to use the Hans Wehr Arabic/English dictionary. However, Hava may be better for early Arabic.

When I have a question, I often ask a variety of experts: Arabic/German specialists such as Puin or Kerr. I also ask question of the language experts at NASCAS (North American Society for Christian Arabic Studies) if the word has Aramaic or Assyrian connections, as well as my circle of friends who have studied Islam both in the Middle East, and also in western universities.

I consider myself a historian of the Arabian Peninsula, and am interested in Thamudic, Safaitic, Nabataean, and Aramaic as well as Arabic, so I surround myself with people who are experts in various languages that I can ask, in case something is too difficult for myself.

[abdelouahed]

I give you some ayats from quran in elbakarah:
From aya 124 to 151:" Oua Idh ibtala Ibrahim rabouhou bi kalimatin fatammahoun...kama arsalna fikoum rasoulan minkoum yatlou alaykum ayatika...(151)".
Do you think that is the original verses narrated by god messenger PBUH to his companions and is protected by god until our days?

[Dan Gibson]

Here I have problems.

I am attaching two photographs of early Qur'āns from Sura two, from the section you mention. They are from 2:120-125 and 2:130-136.

As I mention on page 301 of my book, these were found in 1972 in the Sana’a Mosque in Yemen.

They were witnessed to by the workers, the Yemeni Minister of Antiquities, and the Yemen government who made them available to the University of Saarland in Germany.

The photos below were then taken by UNESCO to preserve them and make then available to scholars worldwide.






First, please note that they are written in a very old Arabic script which is unlike modern Arabic script. It will take you a while to recognize the letters.

Second, notice that the dots were added by a later hand, since very early Arabic did not have any dots.

Third, notice that these two examples are very different from the Qur’ān today.

This is why scholars are having trouble publishing anything about early Qur’āns.

They are so different from modern Qur'āns that it is a huge amount of work, just to address a few verses.

In my book I list in APPENDIX C all the early Qur'āns that have verses 2:143-145 and 48:24.

So, was the Qur’ān protected by God until our days?

These Qur’ānic fragments, and thousands more like them demonstrate that the Qur’ān has changed from its original form.

I am sorry, but I do not believe that the Qur'ān today is the same as the original one.

Attached Thumbnails

[abdelouahed]

You said "Third, notice that these two examples are very different from the Qur’ān today. "

Where is the difference that you mention ? I didn't find any difference between these pages and what is in my heart and between the recent quran books.

Perhaps you don't know well about Quran writing -الرسم القرآني- and its history it's a Branch of quran sciences and i have a book concerning this branch of science.

Also i don't have any difficulties to read these two pages and all the old version of quran which i had an electronic copy , in addition i can rewrite it like the old version that you appeared to us because i'm arabic and i learn the third of quran by heart.

Lets speak about the history of quran gathering by Othman radhia allah anhou, The first version of quran was written without dots and points and that appear in the images in red, these dots were added in the age of malik bin anas radhia allah anhou to protect quran from the bad reading by non arabic persons , example:
"oua idh ibtala ibrahima rabbouhou bikalimat" that means: the god examined abraham by words, but if non arabic person who don't know well arabic bases read it like this:" oua idh ibtala ibrahimou rabbahou bikalimat", so the meaning of the aya is inversed to : abraham examined his god by words.

So this was done to protect quran from distortion -تحريف أو لحن- by ignorant persons.

In that age Malik bin anas interdict to put this addition in the original six versions of othman and authorised it in the copies and boards for children.

This is a portion of a poem " Maourid edhamaan" in quran writing science from old muslim scholar Alkharaz - died 718 AH-
ومالك حض على الإتباع ==== لفعلهم وترك الابتداع
إذ منع السائل من أن يحدث === في الأمهات نقط ما قد أحدث
وإنما رآه للصبيان=== في الصحف والألواح للبيان
والأمهات ملجأ للناس === فمنع النقط للالتباس

SO the yemeni version can be a copy from the original version of othman, or the addition was done after a long time from Malik age.

"This is why scholars are having trouble publishing anything about early Qur’āns". Whom are these scholars you are referring to?.

[Dan Gibson]

There are a number of Early Arabic language experts working on the Sanaa manuscripts. Some of these are Dr. G. Puin and Dr Nasr Abu Zaid. (see (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2000/aug/08/highereducation.theguardiany link) I am not an early Arabic language scholar, so I cannot speak on the differences in the texts. The books that have been published so far are only in German, but Dr. Puin mentioned to me in an email that English translations are planned in the future. I think we will have to wait until his works are published, as I do not have access to the photos he has of the texts, nor the earlier Qur'ans that were erased and written over, but with traces of ink found still on the pages. If you want to take up an argument, you need to do this with him. My research is based on archeological evidence concerning the direction of the qiblas of early mosques, not on Qur'anic texts.

[abdelouahed]

Good
I ask you again about your knowledge in maths and astronomy development history in islam, have you got some informations?

[Dan Gibson]

Most of the books I have seen are from 200 years after the Higra or much later. Have you found anything from the first 100 years of Islamic history? I would be very interested in anything from that time period.

[abdelouahed]

If so how did you arrive to be sure that muslim directed their old mosques like fostat and wasit and kofa to an exact place ?

I think that the maths, astronomy and geodesy in that time were not able to present solutions very accurate to direct the qibla in a high accuracy to a determined place.

All the muslims in that time were working by the hadith of mohammed PBUH:" between east and west qibla", so a maximum effort to define the qibla direction -الجهة وليس العين- even if it did not get perfection- was accepted by the shariaa because of the limitation of informations like latitude and longitude and especially the mathematic method to apply for solving the qibla problem.

For this i think that if the qibla was firstly in petra as you said the muslims were not able to direct their mosques with that accuracy to it, and the result is: there is an misunderstanding of the history or a false reorientation to the events and ideas.

[Dan Gibson]

Chapter 21 in my book explains in some detail how latitude and longitude was determined by the Nabataean merchants in the days before Muhammad. The Quraysh tribe were descended from the Nabataeans. Al Ṭabarī Vol 12, 2408 (using Brill numebering system) gives us the story of Ka'b, an expert in determining the qibla direction. So I believe they could pinpoint it with great accuracy. If they could not, then the qiblas of the early mosques might point in all sorts of directions.But they do not. They are very specific, (allowing for 1 or 4 degrees in error only).

[abdelouahed]

You said that Quraysh descended from nabataeans , who is the scholar that achieve this genealogy?

As i'm a researcher in astronomy and geodesy, can you gave me the exact results of the early directions of the mosques to retest them, and to know do they really intersect in Petra or in other place?

And i demand from you to mention the entire story of Ka'b and some of its results and its methods to define qiblah directions?

[abdelouahed]

Chapter 21 in my book explains in some detail how latitude and longitude was determined by the Nabataean merchants in the days before Muhammad. The Quraysh tribe were descended from the Nabataeans. Al Ṭabarī Vol 12, 2408 (using Brill numebering system) gives us the story of Ka'b, an expert in determining the qibla direction. So I believe they could pinpoint it with great accuracy. If they could not, then the qiblas of the early mosques might point in all sorts of directions.But they do not. They are very specific, (allowing for 1 or 4 degrees in error only).

From this website :

http://www.islamic-a...Rock/qibla.html

If you know experts in geodesy you can ask them about the truth of the method below;

I have drawn the lines of true qibla in red color - towards mecca-

I have drawn the lines of qiblas of old mosques in green for the four places wasit, kufa, baghdad and cairo, in the website they mention them by blue vectors; it's evident that they don't intersect in petra and also there is four points of intersection,

you said also : (allowing for 1 or 4 degrees in error only), but the minimum error in azimuth is in cairo and it is greater then 27°; so of which accuracy that scholars can perform in that age you're speaking about?

[Dan Gibson]

I am not contesting the evidence, just the interpretation of it. There are many different qibla. Those in Spain and North Africa point to somewhere in South Africa. The mosques you mention point to miscellaneous places between Petra and Mecca. These are all explained in the book. There are many more mosques that must be considered.

[abdelouahed]

About the history of Abdellah ibn Ezzoubair radhia allah anhou, here it is the right history from our muslim historians:

wepage link:
http://www.islamweb....lang=A&id=48508

ولما كانت قريش قد عزمت على بناء الكعبة من حلال أموالها ، فقد جمعت لهذا الأمر ما استطاعت ، إلا أن النفقة قد قصرت بهم عن إتمام بناء الكعبة بالمال الحلال الخالص ، ولهذا أخرجوا الحِْجر ( الحطيم ) من البناء ، ووضعوا علامة تدل على أنه من الكعبة ، وقد ثبت في الصحيحين أن رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قال لعائشة - رضي الله عنها : ( ألم تري أن قومك قصرت بهم النفقة ؟ ولولا حدثان قومك بكفر لنقضت الكعبة ، وجعلت لها بابا شرقيا وبابا غربيا ، وأدخلت فيها الحجر ) .

ولما جاء عهد ابن الزبير - رضي الله عنه - قرر أن يعيد بناء الكعبة على نحو ما أراد رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم - في حياته ، فقام بهدمها ، وأعاد بناءها ، وزاد فيها ما قصرت عنه نفقة قريش - وكان حوالي ستة أذرع - ، وزاد في ارتفاع الكعبة عشرة أذرع ، وجعل لها بابين أحدهما من المشرق والآخر من المغرب ، يدخل الناس من باب ويخرجون من الآخر ، وجعلها في غاية الحسن والبهاء ، فكانت على الوصف النبوي كما أخبرته بذلك خالته عائشة أم المؤمنين - رضي الله عنها - .

وفي عهد عبدالملك بن مروان كتب الحجاج بن يوسف الثقفي إليه فيما صنعه ابن الزبير في الكعبة ، وما أحدثه في البناء من زيادة ، وظن أنه فعل ذلك بالرأي والاجتهاد ، فرد عليه عبدالملك بأن يعيدها كما كانت عليه من قبل ، فقام الحجاج بهدم الحائط الشمالى وأخرج الحِجْر كما بنته قريش ، وجعل للكعبة بابا واحد فقط ورفعه عاليا ، وسد الباب الآخر ، ثم لما بلغ عبدالملك بن مروان حديث عائشة - رضي الله عنها ندم على ما فعل ، وقال : " وددنا أنا تركناه وما تولى من ذلك" ، وأراد عبدالملك أن يعيدها على ما بناه ابن الزبير ، فاستشار الإمام مالك في ذلك ، فنهاه خشية أن تذهب هيبة البيت ، ويأتي كل ملك وينقض فعل من سبقه ، ويستبيح حرمة البيت .

The fact that ibn Ezzubair rebuilt the kaaba on the real basics of Abraham in mecca, and Alhadjaj has had also destroy what Ibn ezzoubair done and rebuilt it again like the old styl of Quraish ignoring the hadith of Mohammed PBUH to Aicha :" ألم تري أن قومك قصرت بهم النفقة ؟ ولولا حدثان قومك بكفر لنقضت الكعبة ، وجعلت لها بابا شرقيا وبابا غربيا ، وأدخلت فيها الحجر"

So if Banu Umayyad was able and defeated Ibn zubair why they didn't rebuild Kaaba in Petra and didn't retransfer the black stone there?

[Dan Gibson]

So if Banu Umayyad was able and defeated Ibn zubair why they didn't rebuild Kaaba in Petra and didn't retransfer the black stone there?

The book explains what took place. The Umayyads continued to fight wars , even after the defeat of Ibn Zubair. The Umayyads continued to have trouble as the Baṣran troops revolted against Ḥajjāj,followed by the Khārijites revolt in Jazīrah and Ahwāz resulting in the Battle of Karun.Thenextyear there were campaigns in North Africa. The Muslim armies were once again forsed to withdraw to Barqa, but there were advances in Transoxiana where they occupied Kish. The Azraqī leader is then killed by ’Abd al Mālik’s armies and there are further campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa. Ḥajjāj is at Baṣra battling Ibn al-Ash’ath.Battle of Dayr al-Jamājim follows and then the Battle of Maskin where Ibn al-Ash’ath is defeated.The fortress of Nīzak is conquered by the Ḥajjāj. Ḥajjāj then commands al Mufaḍḍal to take Bādghīs. The unexpected death of ’Abd al Malik is followed by Al-Walīd I becoming the next Umayyad caliph. With all of these battles continuing, no one had the opportunity to rebuilt the Holy City. It lay in ruins, and most years there was no pilgrimage. The new chaliph appoints new governors but there is no governor for the Holy City. Apparently it was in ruins. The new governor in Medina orders the qibla wall in the Mosque of the Prophet to be changed, even if the people protest. (Ṭabarī XXIII pg 141) Apparently the new qibla was starting to be accepted at this time and new mosques at this time are built facing Mecca in Saudi Arabia, although some still face Petra, and a number of mosques point somewhere between them, as you illustated above. I hope this explains my possition which is based on archeology not supposition.

[abdelouahed]

I think that archeology alone is not enough to weighting your point of view, but the material sciences that can decide the case is astronomy, geography and history of their development.

I see that you are not proficient in these two branches of science, as evidenced by the non answer to the question how Nabataeans link between latitude and longitude to find the values of ​​azimuth directions between countries and cities.

The second evidence: the non response on the subject of the historical roots of Mecca wherein historical information outweigh the existence of towns and villages surroundings Mecca and el haram in Saudi Arabia.